Talk:Starfleet uniform (late 2360s-early 2370s)
Reason for uniform switches? What is the canon reason for the consistant switching of styles of uniform, even on the same person, in say Star Trek Generations? :None has ever been given. -- Jaz talk 08:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC) ::This is just Speculation but I personally think it's to do with the area the people are stationed in. The type A uniform was for personnel stationed inside federation territory, keeping the sleek military appearance. But the type B uniform was for personnel on the border, or outside the federation territory; giving a casual and friendly appearance to the federation that wouldn't unduly intimidate new races. DS9 was on the border of federation territory and Voyager(before ending up in the delta quadrant) was also outside federation territory to search for the marquis. Evidence for this is in DS9's and , Sisko is assigned to Earth security; inside the federation, so he wears the Type A uniform. Of course evidence against is in Voyager episode . Harry was assigned to earth, but wore the Type B uniform, as did his friend Lasca.--A Pickering 13:36, January 15, 2010 (UTC) :::Speculation, but based on real life - When I was a kid, I spent many a summer day at a quasi-military country club in Virginia, where the 5th green is closer to the Pentagon than it is to the pro shop. On any given day, you might easily see 5 different officers from one branch in 5 different uniforms (and this included people with desk jobs in camo and flight suits - about the only thing I didn't see was Marine dress blues including the sword), depending on what their CO felt like, so I don't see any real inconsistency in the varying use - I think it's captain's discretion (regarding your "TNG home, DS9 away" theory, a lot of captains probably would think like that, though I doubt there's any explicit regulation). Personally, I think you could even go farther, and have specific department heads choose - I would see nothing wrong with, say, the bridge crew using the more formal TNG variant, while engineering wore the more casual, workmanlike DS9 type.--Ten-pint 15:28, January 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::There is canon support for this speculation. In , Jellico did order Troi to wear a standard uniform while she was on duty, which she continued to do even after he left the ship. The Old Man 04:01, February 19, 2010 (UTC) ::Another speculation is that these uniforms were being gradually introduced into starfleet which is why they were seen in some areas but not others. The uniform probably became starfleet standard until 2370 when the new uniform came out. Evidence to support the gradual introduction theory is that the crew of the Enterprise D were wearing the type B uniform in but when Worf appeared in DS9 (timeline sets it after generations) he was still wearing the type A uniform.--A Pickering 17:02, January 15, 2010 (UTC) :::The problem with that theory is that both uniform styles are seen in use at the same time right up until the introduction of the newer new uniforms in . We see them up until at least towards the end of season 4, in , and then the new uniforms come in by early season 5 in . That would mean they spent 5 years slowly transitioning to the Type B uniform, only to suddenly have the entirety of Starfleet go to the "First Contact" style all at once, with no transition, and no amount of time where everybody was using the Type B. What is far more likely, and actually fits the facts, is that both Type A and Type B were used at the same time, just for different uses. This entirely fits with how uniforms have worked in the modern armed forces. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:41, January 15, 2010 (UTC) :::::My theory is that the "First Contact" uniform is the NEW TYPE B uniform, replacing (all at once) the previous DS9 Type B uniform. The TNG Type A uniform actually continued in use. As recently as the DS9 season-six final episode "Tears of the Prophets", there are two admiral's aids in the battle briefing who wear TNG uniforms (not dress uniforms, but the standard Type A duty uniform). The Type A uniforms probably remain in use until the early 2390s, when they (and the "First Contact" Type B uniforms) are replaced by the "All Good Things . . . " uniform. That's why NOG (in the future of "The Visitor", wears a Type A uniform when most everyone else by that time wears the "First Contact" Type B. ::::::The type B seems to be just a uniform variant. Like the skant uniform of the past. A person would wear it depending on how they felt. This would explain why both uniforms were seen in Generations. Unfortunately it doesn't explain why it's the only uniform seen in DS9 and Voyager.--A Pickering 15:54, August 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::::The TNG uniform is also seen on DS9. It's worn by visiting crews in the early seasons (Odyssey, Lexington, etc.), and by all non-cadet personnel on Earth during "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost," including Sisko. -- 00:52, September 10, 2010 (UTC) Combat uniforms in action The article currently states that the combat uniform has never been shown in action, but images for the operations gold male and female guards from the climax of the episode seem to contradict this claim. Also, there may have been scenes showing other Starfleet personnel on AR-558 in combat in the episode , but I'm not sure. - Intricated talk page 00:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC) Maternity uniforms Shouldn't the maternity version of the uniform seen on Voyager be mentioned? – Sara marie 06:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC) Starfleet Body Armor Suits Will anyone explain or make a theory on why Starfleet officers do not have any form of body armor that will protect them against enemy weapons fire? I am aware of the TOS body armor but in TNG, DS9, VOY, and even the last 3 motion pictures, you would think that when combating enemies such as the Borg, there would be some kind of armor worn to protect one's self from being shot and injured. There have been innumerable times when we would all watch Starfleet officers go on very dangerous away missions without any kind of protection from the elements. VOY does a good job of offering the space suits for situations where one is absolutely and obviously necessary, but they aren't shielded for enemy fire (24th century bulletproof vests anyone??? Where are they?). Viaesta 01:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC) : Starfleet is primarily intended for exploration and diplomacy. I think it is not in keeping with the (original) spirit of the franchise to put an emphasis on militarism, however unrealistic that may be. -- Connor Cabal 01:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC) ::Federation ground troops have been seen wearing a multi-layer uniform which, for all we know, is just that sort of armor. Remember though that the disruptors and phasers they go against are capable of destroying very large amount of solid rock and metal, there may not be a very good "body armor" available. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC) ::By the way, more information on the uniforms can be found here and here, depending on what time period you are looking for. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC) reason for restoring the top Janeway image While not strictly necessary, it shows a comparison of two different uniform styles at top. In an article where an abundance of images is necessary to quickly compare and contrast the different styles, these two images of Star Trek series captains serves as the image complement of a short introductory lead. It also doesn't crowd anything because of the long Table of Contents to the left. Setacourse 16:58, December 8, 2009 (UTC) Q Uniform switch in DS9 episode "Q-Less" Please can someone mention in this article the DS9 episode "Q-Less"? where Q was seen wearing the TNG uniform but wanting to be up to date and fit in with the DS9 crew, switched to the newer DS9 uniform. - gohan 04:03, 9th December 2009 (GMT) :Actually he just said he liked the look of Sisko's uniform "I do like your tailor". So he did it on a whim. Since when does Q ever feel like fitting in? He does things because he feel like them.--A Pickering 17:06, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Utility Jumpsuits section I was reading in this article that under the Utility Jumpsuit section it mentions that the last time this variant is seen (before Nemesis) is in the Season 4 episode Galaxy's Child... I am currently in the middle of watching Season 5 and Data and La Forge both wear the Utility Jumpsuit in "Cost of Living" when they are looking for the cause of the systems failures in the Jeffries Tube. I'm not sure if this was the last appearance of the jumpsuit, but I know for sure that it was seen later in "Cost of Living". Can we get some confirmation on when the last time this jumpsuit was seen before Nemesis? I know that it's been in numerous episodes (sometimes just worn by extras). Why is Galaxy's Child cited as the source of information on this jumpsuit when it was seen much earlier? Special Operation Black This is what the combat uniform is refered to in the book Battle for Betazed. Yes, they did make the "SOB's only" joke. -- 03:28, March 6, 2010 (UTC)--Crazy8 Security and operations different — really? What's the basis for saying that security and operations wore different shades of yellow? Isn't it possible that any perceived difference merely came from the difference between "hero" costumes (designed to be worn by principal characters) and "background" costumes (more likely to be worn by supporting artists and background performers, which security officers are often played by)? There's a similar difference in the shades of blue worn by "lead" doctors and background nurses/medical techs in TNG. Do we really have a justification for the comment about security and operations wearing different shades of yellow? —Josiah Rowe 02:44, August 3, 2010 (UTC) :I agree. In fact, it almost sounds like fanon. -Angry Future Romulan 02:53, August 3, 2010 (UTC) ::I removed the comment. I also think this is a case of hero uniforms vs. extra uniforms. Especially in Voyager, a lot of guards look rather orange, but Tuvok's uniform is the same colour as Harry's.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 04:18, August 3, 2010 (UTC) ::For the record, the note read: ::"...although a slight difference in the tone of yellow used for operations and security is noticeable - security uses a more murky yellow while operations wear a shade of yellow that verges on orange. ( ; ) :: .}}– Cleanse ( talk | ) 04:22, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Thanks. Glad it wasn't just me that thought that was iffy. —Josiah Rowe 03:49, August 4, 2010 (UTC) Overfull bginfo box In the section on Type A standard duty uniforms, the bginfo box has more than 3 paragraphs, but only the first three paragraphs are visible since that's all that Template:bginfo supports. (The remaining paragraphs are visible only in source mode.) According to the bginfo template documentation, background information of more than 3 paragraphs should go in its own "Background Information" section. However, that's a little hard in this case, since the info refers specifically to the Type A standard duty uniform--not to the whole article, as it would down in the overall Background Info section. How should we handle this? I would personally be in favor of adding more paragraphs to the bginfo template's capabilities, but of course if anyone else has a better idea, as the Ferengi say, I'm all ears. :-) -Mdettweiler 05:13, August 3, 2010 (UTC) :You can cheat the template by using in the two actual sections to create more, especially if the two notes are similar, as the spacing isn't quite the same. I wouldn't mind changing the template so more sections could be added, but I think there may be some push back on that. - 05:29, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Ah, I hadn't thought of that--thanks. I agree, it would be better to add more sections to the template--the trick can make it look like the paragraphs are sort of running together. I'll bring it up on the template page. -Mdettweiler 03:40, August 4, 2010 (UTC) Scrubs I don't think the scrubs seen in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" are Starfleet. - 11:06, September 1, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm... you're thinking they might be specific to the Ajilon Prime colony, or even that particular hospital? I suppose that's possible. I don't think the episode indicates either way — they could be Starfleet medical scrubs, or they could be something local. If you want to remove that addition, feel free. —Josiah Rowe 21:49, September 1, 2010 (UTC) If we're not sure, a bg note stating that should be enough, since they could be Starfleet. I just remember the doctor's saying something that made it seem that they weren't in Starfleet. Should probably watch the episode again... - 22:33, September 1, 2010 (UTC) :Me too... in the meanwhile, I put a bginfo note as suggested. Feel free to tweak as needed. —Josiah Rowe 00:54, September 2, 2010 (UTC) :Are the patient clothes different from the scrubs worn by the medical staff? They look the same to me. —Josiah Rowe 17:44, September 2, 2010 (UTC) There is a slight difference in color, and the scrubs have a quilted/textured look while the patient clothes don't. - 17:47, September 2, 2010 (UTC) These two Trekcore screenshots really show the difference: scrubs, patient. - 17:51, September 2, 2010 (UTC) :Thanks! That does clear it up. —Josiah Rowe 20:07, September 2, 2010 (UTC) New Top Props to whoever added the Generations photo at the top showing the two styles together.--Ten-pint 02:32, September 2, 2010 (UTC) :Thanks. Too bad nurse Ogawa wasn't in that shot, since she seems to be wearing the only sciences blue, actually using the TNG blue instead of the DS9 "blue", Type B uniform on the whole ship. - 11:59, September 2, 2010 (UTC) ::I had the same thought, and almost put that in my post. ;-)--Ten-pint 15:09, September 2, 2010 (UTC) It may not be a Starfleet Uniform, but it's definately something Here http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=56on the fourth row down and the first two pictures is definitely a uniform of some kind. I remember seeing it a few times throughout TNG usually when referring to scientists operating on Federation ships, sadly I don't know which episodes exactly however I feel it deserves some sort of recognition. Other Features Should it include Mendon's breathing apparatus? Captain Rixx 04:19, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :My opinion is no, I don't think it's part of the uniform- as he would need that whether he was wearing the uniform or not.--31dot 08:48, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Split I think it's kind of silly to consider the minor changes to the previous design a new uniform when the late 2270s-2350s uniform was more radically changed over the course of its history and we still considered it the same uniform. The Type-A uniform is a clear continuation of the uniform introduced in TNG, and I don't remember anyone commenting on the change to it in the show like they did for the DS9, and later ''First Contact, uniforms, which suggests we were suppose to still consider it the same uniform; much like we consider the different widths of the Galaxy-class saucer to be the same ship class, and even the same ship. The Type-B uniform should remain here of course, and both pages should be renamed slightly to reflect the changes in the years in use. There will be some overlap between the two in years, but that doesn't seem to be a problem now, so I don't see why it would be after a split/merge. - 04:46, May 18, 2011 (UTC) :Oppose - I'm not sure what you are talking about with the Galaxy class thing, but lack of any overt mention of a uniform transition isn't terribly relevant. There wasn't one between Starfleet uniform (2250s-2260s) and Starfleet uniform (mid 2260s-early 2270s), and those uniforms look very similar as well. The looks are deceiving here, there's an overall continuity of the general pattern (color on bottom, black on top), but everything else basically changed. Specific hues are different, physical makeup and structure of the uniforms (like how they cling to the body, the zipper down the front middle, etc.), specific options like the unisex skirt disappearing, etc. These are different uniforms. Given that they brought the old style back for new footage shot in scenes set in early TNG, it seems apparent that from a production perspective they were looked at as different uniforms. Why else would they shoot the old time period scenes in the old style, and the contemporary time period scenes in the contemporary style uniform? The fact is that in DS9, the uniform change was only mentioned as an off hand comment during a medical physical, maybe there just wasn't such a situation on camera for this change (or any of the others we've seen). --OuroborosCobra talk 02:21, May 19, 2011 (UTC) File:Natasha Yar, 2364.jpg|Why don't I get to wear the fancy new digs? File:Datchinson.jpg|Because you died before the new uniform, now cry over your lack of an awesome collar I wouldn't expect any mention where we didn't actually see the transition, which we did here according to how we call it now. We do have mentions at the other two style transitions we see, so this one is conspicuously absent. I also doubt there was much of a color change in the uniforms, like there was between "The Cage" and the rest of TOS. If anything, there was more of a change in the lighting. You can see how close they really are in the images you choose above, while the different lighting in "Yesterday's Enterprise" renders the colors washed out. As for them using the old style of uniforms in "All Good Things..." and "Identity Crisis", TNG simply chose not to treat the audience like a bunch of idiots as some other shows did, or maybe they just cared enough to get it right. I'm not suggesting that there wasn't a minor change, just like there were several minor changes to the red jacket uniforms, I'm saying that there wasn't enough of a change in the uniform's overall style, which is generally how we divide up all the others except here. - 07:36, May 19, 2011 (UTC) :You can make any claims you want about producers not want to teat fans like idiots, but the facts are that they made a distinction between the uniform styles. I'd point out that your image of Tasha Yar is from an alternate timeline where she didn't die. Her larger collar is because she's wearing the new style uniform. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:53, May 20, 2011 (UTC) So you agree with splitting this article, but not with merging the Type A info into the previous article? I take it that you would also support splitting the 2270s-2350s article into four articles then as well, since that's the only logical outcome if we follow the idea that a continuity distinction between minor changes are the "facts" we should be using to divide these up, as opposed to something like overall style. Also, you seem to have completely missed the point of the picture there, which was spelled out plainly in the text, if not the picture's caption. In fact, your response didn't really address the point of overall style at all, you just skirted around it by restating something we already both agree upon, and always have. - 07:11, May 23, 2011 (UTC) ::I may misunderstand this slightly so forgive me if I have got this wrong, but I agree with Archduk3 in that the two uniform styles (early TNG vs late TNG) are the same uniform style only with minor differences and I think should be included in one article not as separate uniform types. Since they both maintain the overall colors, theme and look, I take that as being the same uniform just a different version which has understandably been updated over time. If I were to choose a real world example from my personal experience, the British Armed Forces used a pattern for it's combat uniform for something like 50 years, but it received minor updates across that period of time. Though each update was given a different name, they were considered the same uniform. When the was introduced in 2010, it was (and still is) considered an entirely new uniform to the DPM pattern. To summarize, I agree that the two uniforms are the same, albeit they do have minor changes. This shouldn't mean they are entirely different uniforms however. I'm not sure I explained that well, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say! :) --| TrekFan Open a channel 00:20, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::Support It took me a few times reading through this thread to understand the two sides of the coin, but I have to say that I, like TrekFan, agree with Archduk3 that both uniforms are a variation in style of the same uniform. To add to the already used argument, I think the similarities are greater than the differences.-- OvBacon(Talk) 01:19, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::::Support. Can't elaborate right now due to the weather.--31dot 01:42, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::As an additional argument for the merge, you wouldn't consider separating the early DS9 and Voyager style uniforms because they feature a different comm badge (which is just as minor a change as introducing a collar, if you ask me), would you? --| TrekFan Open a channel 12:14, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::::A bit late, but I also support this.–Cleanse ( talk | ) 10:42, June 21, 2011 (UTC) ---- ::::I support this as well, the two styles do overlap, and the TNG uniform was not even completely phased out, it's seen as late as season 6 on DS9, which means it actually outlasted this uniform variant, being worn along side the next style. Also there are several variants shown on both pages too, which is redundant. I'm all for merging the two pages.-Cpthunt 00:31, February 18, 2012 (UTC) This discussion is almost a year old, and you have the intent completely backward, as this discussion merged the second version of the TNG uniform with the first. It is not suggesting that the DS9/VOY uniform be merged with the TNG one, because of all the reasons mentioned above. - 00:38, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Name Change I'd like to propose changing the name of this article from "Starfleet Uniform (late 2360s-early 2370s)" to "Starfleet Uniform (2369-2373)". We have a pretty definite time period that Starfleet officially used these uniforms, and I think the title can afford the more definite detail (and it looks better in my opinion :P ). -- 03:14, September 7, 2011 (UTC) :The reason for the ambiguity in the tile is that these uniforms were used in conjunction with the presiding and latter styles of uniform for their entire run. While we have a rather firm start date for these, we don't have a firm end date, as the admiral uniforms didn't update until 2374, and Voyager kept using these even after contact was made with the Federation. - 09:56, September 7, 2011 (UTC) It's not fair to hold Voyager hostage to the title decision, Voyager was in a unique situation; had the ship been in the Alpha Quadrant when the First Contact uniforms were introduced, they would have switched to those. As for the admiral's uniform, this Wiki has the one you're talking about listed as belonging to the TNG uniforms, not these ones. With those points in mind, I stand by my proposal. -- 22:47, September 7, 2011 (UTC) :The admiral uniform is covered with the TNG ones because it retained that style, but it was introduced in 2369 along with these, which is why it's mentioned here along with the dress uniforms. That said, I stand by the page title as is, since it should reflect the most prominent use of these uniforms, which is Voyager. - 23:54, September 7, 2011 (UTC) Desert uniform The desert uniform should be added. It was an all white uniform with a head covering and a colored stripe on it. It was worn when Sisko went searching for the orb near the end of the series. 10:11, March 29, 2013 (UTC) :That's covered on Starfleet uniform (2373). 31dot (talk) 10:24, March 29, 2013 (UTC)